William the Conqueror and Charlemagne
Leo van de Pas
I am always keen to be secure with the information I have, and if anything is wrong I am only glad to correct it.
1.William the Conqueror, King of England, Duke of Normandy
born 1028 Falaise, Normandy
died 9 September 1087 Priory of Saint Gervais, Rouem
(one source Burke's Guide to the Royal Family)
2.Robert the Devil, Duke of Normandy
born about 1000
died 22 July 1035 Nicea, Bithynia, Turkey
child by
3.Harlette/Herleve
born in Falaise, Calvados
died about 1050
(Burke's Guide to the Royal Family, ES Freytag, ES Schwennicke)
4.Richard II the Good, Duke of Normandy
born 23 August 963
died 28 August 1027
married ca.1000
5.Judith de Bretagne
born 982
died 16 June 1017
(ES Schwennicke III/1 75 Neu)
10.Conon I le Tort, Duke of Brittany
died in battle 27 June 992
married 973
11.Ermengarde d'Anjou
(ES Schwennicke III/1 75 Neu, Weiss Ancestral Roots)
22.Geoffrey I, Count of Anjou
born about 950
died 21 July 987
married about 965
23.Adelais de Vermandois
born about 950
died about 975
(Gerald Paget, Ancestry of the Prince of Wales Volume I page 139)
46.Robert de Vermnandois, Count of Meaux and Troyes
born about 910
died 19 August 967
married about 950
47.Adelheid/Wera de Bourgogne
(Siegfried Rosch, Caroli Magni Progeni 148)
92.Heribert II, Count of Vermandois
born about 879
died 23 February 943 St.Quentin
married before 907
93.Adela/Liegarde/Hildebrante of Neustria
(Siegfried Rosch, Caroli Magni Progeni 124, Weiss, Ancestral Roots)
184.Heribert I, Count of Vermandois
born about 850
murdered about 900/902
married
185.Bertha de Morvois
(Siegfried Rosch, Caroli Magni Progeni, 105, Weiss Ancestral Roots)
368.Pippin, Count of Senlis, Peronne and St.Quintin
died after 840
369.NN
(Siegfried Rosch, Caroli Magni Progeni 86, Weiss Ancestral Roots)
736.Bernhard I, King of Italy
born about 797
died 17 April 818
married about 814
737.Kunigund
died after 15 June 835
(Siegfried Rosch, Caroli Magni Progeni 74)
1472.Pippin I Karlmann, King of Italy
born 777
died 8 July 810 .
married about 795
1473. (Bertha ?)
(Siegfried Rosch, Caroli Magni Progeni 67)
2944.Charlemagne, Holy Roman Emperor
born about 747/748
died 28 January 814 Aachen
married 30 April 771
2945.Hildegardis
born 758
died 30 April 783
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
Peter Stewart
"Leo van de Pas" <leov...@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.137.12084664...@rootsweb.com...
> Todd Farmerrie made an invitation.
> I am always keen to be secure with the information I have, and
> if anything is wrong I am only glad to correct it.
>
> 1.William the Conqueror, King of England, Duke of Normandy
<snip>
> 22.Geoffrey I, Count of Anjou
> born about 950
> died 21 July 987
> married about 965
> 23.Adelais de Vermandois
> born about 950
> died about 975
> (Gerald Paget, Ancestry of the Prince of Wales Volume I page 139)
>
> 46.Robert de Vermnandois, Count of Meaux and Troyes
> born about 910
> died 19 August 967
> married about 950
> 47.Adelheid/Wera de Bourgogne
> (Siegfried Rosch, Caroli Magni Progeni 148)
The certainty problem occurs with this connection - we have no explicit
contemporary evidence for it.
The death-bed charter of Geoffrey Grisegonelle's wife Adela(is) is dated at
Angers 6 March 974. This was confirmed by her husband, ostensibly soon after
she died around the same time, and his act was witnessed by counts named
Heribert and Eudes who are (very plausibly) assumed to Heribert, count of
Meaux, Troyes & Provins (died January 995), probably her brother, and Eudes
I, count of Blois & Tours, except that the latter became count only when his
father died after 975 - however, subscriptions were often added or updated
as to titles later, usually when original charters were transcribed into
cartularies, and this may not be a difficulty.
These charters come from Saint-Aubin abbey at Angers, where the monks at
this time were, to say the least, not reliable genealogists with connections
of their comital family. Attendance at a death-bed is not strong evidence
for a brother-sister relationship anyway, but they seem to have had more
than this to go by: in a 12th-century lineage from the same abbey, the
ancestry of Adela is set out as follows:
Herbertus de Tricis [Heribert "of Troyes", but correctly of Meaux, Soissons
& Vermandois]
|
Robertus [count of Troyes, but apparently by right of his wife inherited
from her father, not his]
|
Adela
For all we know, the compiler at Saint-Aubin might have been wrong about
more than her stated grandfather Heribert possessing Troyes. The record from
there of Adela's sister-in-law, the famous Adela Blanca of Anjou, is badly
confused, making her daughter Queen Constance the heiress of the Carolingian
kings.
The ancestry of Adela is generally accepted nowadays as entered in
Genealogics, but the proofs for this cannnot be considered definite.
Peter Stewart
t...@clearwire.net
> "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote in messagenews:mailman.137.12084664...@rootsweb.com...
>
> > Todd Farmerrie made an invitation.
> > I am always keen to be secure with the information I have, and
> > if anything is wrong I am only glad to correct it.
>
> > 1.William the Conqueror, King of England, Duke of Normandy
>
> <snip>
>
> > 22.Geoffrey I, Count of Anjou
> > born about 950
> > died 21 July 987
> > married about 965
> > 23.Adelais de Vermandois
> > born about 950
> > died about 975
> > (Gerald Paget, Ancestry of the Prince of Wales Volume I page 139)
>
> > 46.Robert de Vermnandois, Count of Meaux and Troyes
> > born about 910
> > died 19 August 967
> > married about 950
> > 47.Adelheid/Wera de Bourgogne
> > (Siegfried Rosch, Caroli Magni Progeni 148)
>
> The certainty problem occurs with this connection - we have no explicit
> contemporary evidence for it.
Actually, what I had in mind was the lack of certainty for the
Heribert II / Heribert I link.
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/herib001.htm
taf
taf
Peter Stewart
<t...@clearwire.net> wrote in message
news:b996b02f-15e8-4de1...@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
I agree with Stewart Baldwin's statement that "In the unlikely event that
Heribert II was not a son of Heribert I, he would in that case almost
certainly be a son of either Bernard or P�pin, brothers of Heribert I" - in
other words, the link might not be absolutely certain but the agantic
ancestry to Charlemagne is hardly in doubt. The silence on the point could
indicate only that contemporary writers did not think the relationship
between Heribert I and Heribert II needed remarking on. In my view, Flodoard
and others would more likely have mentioned the facts if the two men were
NOT father and son than if they were.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:uxQNj.2654$ko5...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
<snip>
> Herbertus de Tricis [Heribert "of Troyes", but correctly of Meaux,
> Soissons & Vermandois]
> |
> Robertus [count of Troyes, but apparently by right of his wife inherited
> from her father, not his]
> |
> Adela
>
> For all we know, the compiler at Saint-Aubin might have been wrong about
> more than her stated grandfather Heribert possessing Troyes.
I received an email questioning this, citing several modern authorities -
including Ferdinand Lot, no less - for Heribert II of Vermandois as count of
Troyes.
The only source for this apart from the late and questionable genealogy
above is a charter of Heribert II's daughter Ledgardis, who was married
first to William I of Normandy and secondly to Thibaud I of Blois. This
document is dated 5 February 978 and the published version includes the
phrase "pro anima patris mei Heirberti [sic], Trecassini comitis" (for the
soul of my father Heribert, count of Troyes).
However, this text appears in a transcription made in the mid-1th century in
the cartulary of Saint-Père de Chartres, a compilation that has more than a
normal ration of dubious interpolations, clumsy fabrications and outright
forgeries. In this case, unusually, the original of the charter survives in
the Archives départementales of Eure-et-Loire, H. 500 no. 1 - and the words
"Trecassini comitis" do not appear in it. This was discussed by Karl Werner
in 'Untersuchungen zur Frühzeit des französischen Fürstentums (9.-10.
Jahrhundert)', v. Zur Geschichte des Hauses Vermandois, _Die Welt als
Geschichte_ 20 (1960), at pp. 107-115.
Peter Stewart